Node.js TSC x WinterCG Collaborative Call

[legendecas]

Explain the WinterCG process and working mode to the TSC, and answer some questions from the TSC.

Please feel free to fill out the Doodle: https://doodle.com/meeting/participate/id/epzK8pNb (Deadline: Nov 10th).
Meeting time: UTC 16:00-17:00, Mon, Nov 13.
Meeting link: https://zoom.us/j/96584430907

[legendecas]

Updated with meeting time and link.

[jasnell]

Arg, dangit, I totally miscalculated the timezone offsets and realized I selected a time that in the doodle that conflicted with an internal cloudflare call that I need to be on... and as fortune would have it that's the time you picked :-/ . I likely won't be able to make the call but don't let me hold things up.

[legendecas]

Attendees:

• @lucacasonato
• @legendecas
• @joyeecheung
• @GeoffreyBooth
• @RaisinTen
• @andreubotella
• @lino-levan
• @mhdawson

Luca gives an introduction to WinterCG.

• Past work on communicating server-side runtime needs in standard bodies: response.json(), web streams.
  Common minimum API
• WIP: Subset of Fetch, new Unified Socket API
• Community Group is not allowed to publish standards, but no W3C membership required
• Chartering a committee under ECMA
• Need to sign IPR policy when participating
• Regular meetings can be joined. Just ask for an invite.
• No formal consensus, no votes, trust editor’s judgements
• Mostly community contributors, proposals won’t move forward by themselves unless someone puts in the time
• No compliance mechanisms currently, test suites planned
• Not trying to force any runtime to implement anything, mostly a venue for discussion and finding consensus
• Limited participation from Node.js. Individuals can only speak for themselves, not for the Node.js project. Seeking more feedback from TSC members.
• https://gist.github.com/lucacasonato/1ebf62e4af56f3867c2563be464dd512

Joyee: need to seek consensus among collaborators, not only TSC. TSC only comes in when collaborators can’t reach a consensus.
Geoffrey: recently formed a team @web-standards, collaborators can still object to the decision that the team made.
Michael: at NodeConf EU we discussed creating a repo “standard positions” to collect and document consensus on a standard among collaborators. nodejs/admin#841
Michael: this can be the best way to collect opinions and position, gives people a week to chime in, compared to a PR for 2 days.
Joyee: we also discussed a process to make sure the discussion will not defer forever. E.g. set a deadline, and have a list of less-noisy channels to get the message out. If folks don’t show up until after the deadline, the consensus is considered already documented and some extra step would be needed to override that.
Michael: ask for a channel like Slack, to post some information. Regular meetings could be a high bar. Allow a lower bar to get involved.
Luca: Work has to happen with the champion’s work. Need active feedback from a runtime to be considered. If too much work is needed to collect feedback people may be less motivated to consider feedback.
Chengzhong: WinterCG has a matrix channel but most Node.js collaborators probably are not on it. Maybe we can start a Slack channel.
Michael: maybe that’s a good one for ad-hoc discussions
Luca: we don’t want to have too much process, if folks have to monitor all these channels this can be too much work. Maybe we can use a bot to bridge the two channels.
Chengzhong: WinterCG is considering ECMA as a host. Would it be a concern for Node.js collaborators because that may require membership?
Luca: probably not because OpenJSF is a member.
Joyee: an individual can be an invited expert or a representative of OpenJSF by openjs/standards team
Michael: building a proposal can be hard and needs a champion.
Chengzhong: nodejs/node#50668
Luca: we’ve seen the concerns about the text above the logo and changed it to “WinterCG includes participants from”
Chengzhong: what does it mean to be a WinterCG runtime
Michael: In that context what is the take on a new runtime naming themselves to include WinterCG
Luca: We haven’t discussed this in a regular meeting
Joyee: Another idea that was brought up in the NodeConf by littledan is to establish a WinterCG strategic initiative. A champion can volunteer to steer the work and handle the consensus-seeking process from the collaborators.
Luca: Links to discussion channels: https://github.com/wintercg/admin

Recording: link

[lino-levan]

Is nodejs/node#50668 the right place for the issue? I'd have figured that there would be a nodejs/admin or equivalent.

[legendecas]

Yes, we discussed two issues in the call.

• Create nodejs/standards-positions repository nodejs/admin#841
• Seeking approval to use the Node.js logo on the WinterCG website nodejs/node#50668

The first one is being discussed at nodejs/admin to build a process to collect standards positions in Node.js.

[jasnell]

Putting WinterCG co-chair hat on: Thank you @legendecas and @lucacasonato on representing the WinterCG perspective here.
Switching to my TSC hat: Thank you to the TSC members that made the call. Seems like it was super productive :-)

[littledan]

Sorry I missed this but I agree with all the characterizations people made about WinterCG and Ecma in the notes and I am happy about this collaboration.